Why do train drivers get paid so much more than bus drivers?

[Alasdair]

I see in another place uk.railway, an advert for train drivers where
the wages are £33K per annum. I don't know many bus drivers who earn
that kind of money even with overtime.

[Ross]

On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 18:47:44 +0000, Alasdair wrote in

Post by Alasdair
I see in another place uk.railway, an advert for train drivers where
the wages are £33K per annum. I don't know many bus drivers who earn
that kind of money even with overtime.

Train drivers get paid much more for two reasons:

#1 - it takes a year to train a train driver. That costs a *lot* - the
usual quote in the rail industry is over 20k, which immediately
makes train drivers a valuable resource. Bus drivers, OTOH, are
trained in weeks and are therefore significantly cheaper to train
- and thus of less value to their employers.
#2 - at privatisation train drivers had a strong union which was able
to play the employers off against each other.
Bus drivers had (and have) the T&G, which ISTR was pretty famous
for its willingness to roll over and play dead when management
barked - not helped by the tendency of local representatives to
be offered (and accept) promotion to management jobs and thus not
want to rock the boat too much whilst in union positions. Midland
Red passim, that last.


Interestingly we do have a former bus driver at my depot - but he's
never been able to convince any of his erstwhile colleagues to apply
for train driver jobs. I wonder why they're not interested?

[Alasdair]

On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 22:15:53 +0000, Ross

Post by Ross
Interestingly we do have a former bus driver at my depot - but he's
never been able to convince any of his erstwhile colleagues to apply
for train driver jobs. I wonder why they're not interested?

But all bus companies are squealing out for drivers -- there's no
apparent shortage of jobs even at £7 an hour (£12,740 per annum). On
the other hand, your advert for train drivers was the first I have
*ever* seen.

Perhaps the £33k has something to do with it.

We are talking here about the sort of salary which would be paid to a
good honours graduate with several years' experience in his
profession. School teachers who train for 5 years start at around £20k
going up to just under £30K after 6 years where they stop unless
promoted to head of department or some such. Newly qualified
solicitors who train for about 5 or 6 years only get around £25K. I
now understand why the driver of the DMU taking me into Glasgow
Central was reading the Financial Times!!

Driving a modern train is not like driving an old steamer where you
served several years as a fireman before getting anywhere near the
controls. The job still has the unsocial hours and the thing that
would put me off is the idea of decapitating the various suicide
candidates who choose to use the train drivers for that purpose.

[Ross]

On Sat, 30 Dec 2006 00:03:32 +0000, Alasdair wrote in

Post by Alasdair
On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 22:15:53 +0000, Ross

Post by Ross
Interestingly we do have a former bus driver at my depot - but he's
never been able to convince any of his erstwhile colleagues to apply
for train driver jobs. I wonder why they're not interested?

But all bus companies are squealing out for drivers -- there's no
apparent shortage of jobs even at £7 an hour (£12,740 per annum).

Yup. There's a simple reason for that: people don't want to drive
buses for such a low salary.

Post by Alasdair
On the other hand, your advert for train drivers was the first I have
*ever* seen.
Perhaps the £33k has something to do with it.

Or perhaps you've simply not seen the adverts.


[...]

Post by Alasdair
Driving a modern train is not like driving an old steamer where you
served several years as a fireman before getting anywhere near the
controls.

Driving a modern bus is nothing like driving an old crash-box,
non-power-steered half-cab bus, either, and nor is the career path
leading to that rôle.
I fail to see the relevance of your comment to anything much.

Post by Alasdair
The job still has the unsocial hours and the thing that
would put me off is the idea of decapitating the various suicide
candidates who choose to use the train drivers for that purpose.

I've been driving trains for nearly 7 years and I've never had a
suicide.
I have, however, had a fatal accident which involved destroying a
white van and its occupants, and I can therefore recommend that you do
not buy a Renault Movango if you intend arguing with any other
vehicles.


Oh, and that accident showed another reason people would prefer to
drive trains rather than buses:
A bus driver who spent 8 months off work after a fatal accident while
the doctors decided if he was fit to return wouldn't have a job to
return to.
A train driver may not receive as much support from his employer as
the railway inspectorate, the safety authorities or his family may
wish, but he'll be paid throughout the time he's off work and his job
will be waiting for him when he's fit to return.

[krystnors]

Post by Alasdair
On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 22:15:53 +0000, Ross
But all bus companies are squealing out for drivers -- there's no
apparent shortage of jobs even at £7 an hour (£12,740 per annum). On
the other hand, your advert for train drivers was the first I have
*ever* seen.
Perhaps the £33k has something to do with it.

"even at £7 an hour"??

"EVEN at £7 an hour"??

For all the responsibility, unsocial hours, incompetent management, and the
usual sh!t and crap from Joe Public.

Glad I got out.

krystnors

[n***@blueyonder.co.uk]

On Wed, 3 Jan 2007 22:36:01 -0000, "krystnors"

Post by krystnors
"EVEN at £7 an hour"??
For all the responsibility, unsocial hours, incompetent management, and the
usual sh!t and crap from Joe Public.
Glad I got out.
krystnors

£ 7.00 an hour I really do feel very sorry for them I was getting
£13.50 A WEEK in 1951 when I got my PSV and we drove real buses
in 1951 with clutches and crash boxes and real hand brakes not the
poxy little leavers of today and power steering and no clutch .
Bus drivers today don't know they are born oh and we had to provide
our own uniforms also .

[krystnors]

Post by Ross
#2 - at privatisation train drivers had a strong union which was able
to play the employers off against each other.
Bus drivers had (and have) the T&G, which ISTR was pretty famous
for its willingness to roll over and play dead when management
barked - not helped by the tendency of local representatives to
be offered (and accept) promotion to management jobs and thus not
want to rock the boat too much whilst in union positions. Midland
Red passim, that last.

Seen this at first hand. Directors sacked the local manager (who actually
did have a clue what he was doing) and within a week installed the T&G Union
Secretary as manager.

krystnors

[n***@blueyonder.co.uk]

Post by Alasdair
I don't know many bus drivers who earn
that kind of money even with overtime.

I do not know many bus drivers that are responsible for so many lives
each day either train drivers deserve every penny they get unlike that
National Express idiot the other night he should be banned for LIFE
!! .

[Steve Fitzgerald]

Post by n***@blueyonder.co.uk

Post by Alasdair
I don't know many bus drivers who earn
that kind of money even with overtime.

I do not know many bus drivers that are responsible for so many lives
each day either train drivers deserve every penny they get unlike that
National Express idiot the other night he should be banned for LIFE
!! .

So you know exactly what happened and you are qualified to be judge and
jury?

I think you need to stop reading The Sun and think for yourself.

[Brian Robertson]

Post by Alasdair
I see in another place uk.railway, an advert for train drivers where
the wages are £33K per annum. I don't know many bus drivers who earn
that kind of money even with overtime.

As I said on uk.railway, you could train a monkey to drive a train these
days and they do NOT deserve that kind of wage.

Brian.

[n***@blueyonder.co.uk]

On Sat, 06 Jan 2007 10:30:12 GMT, Brian Robertson

Post by Brian Robertson

Post by Alasdair
I see in another place uk.railway, an advert for train drivers where
the wages are £33K per annum. I don't know many bus drivers who earn
that kind of money even with overtime.

As I said on uk.railway, you could train a monkey to drive a train these
days and they do NOT deserve that kind of wage.
Brian.

I beg to differ they DO deserve that kind of wage just for the sheer
fact of the number of lives that they have in their hands each journey
they make same as airline captions .
A bus drivers responsibility is nothing compared to the responsibility
of a train drivers and I speak has an ex bust driver with 35 years
service under my belt .

[Brian Robertson]

Post by n***@blueyonder.co.uk
On Sat, 06 Jan 2007 10:30:12 GMT, Brian Robertson

Post by Brian Robertson

Post by Alasdair
I see in another place uk.railway, an advert for train drivers where
the wages are £33K per annum. I don't know many bus drivers who earn
that kind of money even with overtime.

As I said on uk.railway, you could train a monkey to drive a train these
days and they do NOT deserve that kind of wage.
Brian.

I beg to differ they DO deserve that kind of wage just for the sheer
fact of the number of lives that they have in their hands each journey
they make same as airline captions .
A bus drivers responsibility is nothing compared to the responsibility
of a train drivers and I speak has an ex bust driver with 35 years
service under my belt .

Yes, and I'm speaking as someone with 10 years as a bus driver and 11
years as a train driver.

Never in a million years will a train driver be worth 33k. And of course
you omit to mention the simple fact that mosts services will NEVER
support the running of a train with a driver and guard who are earning
close on 60k a year between them.

Brian.

[n***@blueyonder.co.uk]

On Sat, 06 Jan 2007 14:28:44 GMT, Brian Robertson

Post by Brian Robertson
Never in a million years will a train driver be worth 33k. And of course
you omit to mention the simple fact that mosts services will NEVER
support the running of a train with a driver and guard who are earning
close on 60k a year between them.

Airlines manage to support running planes between Manchester and
London with all the expenses involved train companies must increase
ticket prices in line with the expenses they have to meet to maintain
the services.
Two members of my family used to work on the railways one has a guard
who are now called train managers the other a driver he being the
driver who died at the controls of a locomotive at Paulton le Fylde
station quite a few years ago now .
I shall be traveling between Preston and Euston next month for the
very expensive fair of £ 10.25 each way transport for London charge
more realistic fairs £ 4.00 each way Euston to Waterloo now was 3.50
in October .

[Brian Robertson]

Post by n***@blueyonder.co.uk
On Sat, 06 Jan 2007 14:28:44 GMT, Brian Robertson

Post by Brian Robertson
Never in a million years will a train driver be worth 33k. And of course
you omit to mention the simple fact that mosts services will NEVER
support the running of a train with a driver and guard who are earning
close on 60k a year between them.

Airlines manage to support running planes between Manchester and
London with all the expenses involved train companies must increase
ticket prices in line with the expenses they have to meet to maintain
the services.

What complete drivel. I wouldn't believe you if you told me that the
year was 2007.

Brian.

[Ivor Jones]

Post by Brian Robertson

Post by n***@blueyonder.co.uk
On Sat, 06 Jan 2007 14:28:44 GMT, Brian Robertson

Post by Brian Robertson
Never in a million years will a train driver be worth
33k. And of course you omit to mention the simple
fact that mosts services will NEVER support the
running of a train with a driver and guard who are
earning close on 60k a year between them.

Airlines manage to support running planes between
Manchester and London with all the expenses involved
train companies must increase ticket prices in line
with the expenses they have to meet to maintain the
services.

What complete drivel. I wouldn't believe you if you told
me that the year was 2007.

Ron still thinks it's 1953.

Ivor

[David B]

I'm currently a Conductor/Guard on the railway hoping to be a driver
soon. I also have 10 years experience driving buses in London and
holiday coaches abroad.

Whilst I agree driving buses and coaches is more challenging and
physically difficult, it is relatively easy to train drivers up - often
many drivers don't even speak english! Also you can more easily get
away with for example, speeding and running red lights.

I was told this about our high salary. We are paid for what we know,
not for what we do. And I'm just a guard but my training lasted 3
months. In addition to the assessments I had to take at the beginning,
I took several exams during my course which I had to pass. And right
now I am continually assessed even as a mere conductor.

Usually once potential PSV drivers pass their test and are out on their
own, unless they have an accident or a complaint, they never do get an
official review every 3 months or whatever by a manager.

However I do agree that bus and coach drivers are underpaid except
perhaps those driving bendibuses in London. I understand the way for
them can exceed 30k with overtime.

[Alasdair]

Post by David B
Also you can more easily get
away with for example, speeding and running red lights.

I thought running a red light was a mortal sin on the railway.

[Ivor Jones]

On 10 Jan 2007 23:32:25 -0800, "David B"

Post by David B
Also you can more easily get
away with for example, speeding and running red lights.

I thought running a red light was a mortal sin on the
railway.

It can certainly have an effect on your mortality..!

Ivor

[David B]

Post by Alasdair

Post by David B
Also you can more easily get
away with for example, speeding and running red lights.

I thought running a red light was a mortal sin on the railway.
--
Alasdair

I meant you can get away with speeding and running red lights in a PSV
but not on the railway.

[Brian Robertson]

Post by David B
I'm currently a Conductor/Guard on the railway hoping to be a driver
soon. I also have 10 years experience driving buses in London and
holiday coaches abroad.
Whilst I agree driving buses and coaches is more challenging and
physically difficult, it is relatively easy to train drivers up - often
many drivers don't even speak english! Also you can more easily get
away with for example, speeding and running red lights.
I was told this about our high salary. We are paid for what we know,
not for what we do. And I'm just a guard but my training lasted 3
months. In addition to the assessments I had to take at the beginning,
I took several exams during my course which I had to pass. And right
now I am continually assessed even as a mere conductor.
Usually once potential PSV drivers pass their test and are out on their
own, unless they have an accident or a complaint, they never do get an
official review every 3 months or whatever by a manager.
However I do agree that bus and coach drivers are underpaid except
perhaps those driving bendibuses in London. I understand the way for
them can exceed 30k with overtime.

I was not suggesting that train drivers should not be well paid. Just
not THAT well paid!

Brian.

[Ross-a-travelling]

Post by Brian Robertson

Post by n***@blueyonder.co.uk
On Sat, 06 Jan 2007 10:30:12 GMT, Brian Robertson

[...]

Post by Brian Robertson
Yes, and I'm speaking as someone with 10 years as a bus driver and 11
years as a train driver.

Still whingeing, Brian?

Still sulking about the fact that your drinking meant you got sacked
from the railways and because you know that if you'd been able to keep
your head out of the bottle, you too would be earning 33k or more?

Post by Brian Robertson
Never in a million years will a train driver be worth 33k.

Market forces, Brian. Live with it.

Never in a million years will a stockbroker be worth millions of pounds
a year, but thats' what they get paid.

It's all part of the fun of a capitalist society.

Post by Brian Robertson
And of course
you omit to mention the simple fact that mosts services will NEVER
support the running of a train with a driver and guard who are earning
close on 60k a year between them.

50k, not 60, but hey, exaggeration is all part of the fun of a rant,
isn't it?

And "most" isn't correct, either, but again - why let facts stand in
the way of a good rant?


Happy New Year, and I think I'd best wish you a Happy Christmas for the
end of this year, too; you're getting so wound up on this topic I don't
think you'll survive to see Christmas.

R.

[Brian Robertson]

Post by Ross-a-travelling

Post by Brian Robertson

Post by n***@blueyonder.co.uk
On Sat, 06 Jan 2007 10:30:12 GMT, Brian Robertson

[...]

Post by Brian Robertson
Yes, and I'm speaking as someone with 10 years as a bus driver and 11
years as a train driver.

Still whingeing, Brian?
Still sulking about the fact that your drinking meant you got sacked
from the railways and because you know that if you'd been able to keep
your head out of the bottle, you too would be earning 33k or more?

If I was sulking about it I would most likely be a little more cautious
in mentioning it than I am. I never regret or dwell upon the past. It
has always seemed a rather silly way to spend one's time.

Post by Ross-a-travelling

Post by Brian Robertson
Never in a million years will a train driver be worth 33k.

Market forces, Brian. Live with it.
Never in a million years will a stockbroker be worth millions of pounds
a year, but thats' what they get paid.

Rubbish! At least the stockbroker earns that kind of money for his
company and clients.

Post by Ross-a-travelling
It's all part of the fun of a capitalist society.

Screwing poor people into the ground (Or leaving them without a train
because they are too expensive to run) is not my idea of fun.

Post by Ross-a-travelling

Post by Brian Robertson
And of course
you omit to mention the simple fact that mosts services will NEVER
support the running of a train with a driver and guard who are earning
close on 60k a year between them.

50k, not 60, but hey, exaggeration is all part of the fun of a rant,
isn't it?

My brother is a conductor and earns close on 30k with overtime. When I
went to school 33k and 30k = 63k. Even with his basic, the combined
wages are closer to 60k than 50k. But please don't let your stupidity
stand in the way of what you obviously perceive to be SUCH a good put down.

Post by Ross-a-travelling
And "most" isn't correct, either, but again - why let facts stand in
the way of a good rant?
Happy New Year, and I think I'd best wish you a Happy Christmas for the
end of this year, too; you're getting so wound up on this topic I don't
think you'll survive to see Christmas.

Why do you think that I am getting wound up? The subject of driver's
wages has been mentioned and I have simply pointed out that the job of
driving a train is not worth 33k.

And, yes, you could train monkeys to do the job.

Brian.

[n***@blueyonder.co.uk]

On Sat, 06 Jan 2007 17:09:33 GMT, Brian Robertson

Post by Brian Robertson
Why do you think that I am getting wound up? The subject of driver's
wages has been mentioned and I have simply pointed out that the job of
driving a train is not worth 33k.

Ask yourself who's fault it is that wages are so high and if is the
same reason that our electricity and gas prices and prices of
everything else is so high . Just who is to blame the blasted no good
union scum bags of course, I am a great admirer of Lady Thatcher but I
have to say with all honesty that when she set out to brake the unions
she just did not do a good enough job they should have been
obliterated from the work place completely .

[Ivor Jones]

Post by n***@blueyonder.co.uk
On Sat, 06 Jan 2007 17:09:33 GMT, Brian Robertson

Post by Brian Robertson
Why do you think that I am getting wound up? The
subject of driver's wages has been mentioned and I have
simply pointed out that the job of driving a train is
not worth 33k.

Ask yourself who's fault it is that wages are so high and
if is the same reason that our electricity and gas prices
and prices of everything else is so high . Just who is to
blame the blasted no good union scum bags of course, I am
a great admirer of Lady Thatcher but I have to say with
all honesty that when she set out to brake the unions she
just did not do a good enough job they should have been
obliterated from the work place completely .

And leave the workforce with no representation against an unfair
management whatsoever..? Right.

Ivor

[Brian Robertson]

Post by n***@blueyonder.co.uk
On Sat, 06 Jan 2007 17:09:33 GMT, Brian Robertson

Post by Brian Robertson
Why do you think that I am getting wound up? The subject of driver's
wages has been mentioned and I have simply pointed out that the job of
driving a train is not worth 33k.

Ask yourself who's fault it is that wages are so high and if is the
same reason that our electricity and gas prices and prices of
everything else is so high . Just who is to blame the blasted no good
union scum bags of course, I am a great admirer of Lady Thatcher but I
have to say with all honesty that when she set out to brake the unions
she just did not do a good enough job they should have been
obliterated from the work place completely .

A bit like the bad job that the IRA did at Brighton then? They should be
shot in public for failing in their mission.

Bastards!

Brian.

[n***@blueyonder.co.uk]

Post by Ross-a-travelling
Still sulking about the fact that your drinking meant you got sacked
from the railways and because you know that if you'd been able to keep
your head out of the bottle, you too would be earning 33k or more?

Now this is one thing that became very apparent to me from a very
early age although at the time I thought nothing about it I wasn't old
enough but most railway workers are ardent boozers. back in the late
1940's we had a driver that lived close to us and every time he set of
for work he always had a couple of bottles of beer hanging out of his
pockets.
My two cousins where never out of the pub even when on duty my guard
cousin when he arrived at London was straight into the bar and the
other one who was based in Blackpool was straight into the pub outside
Preston Station when ever he changed trains there .

[a***@yahoo.co.uk]

Post by Brian Robertson

Post by Alasdair
I see in another place uk.railway, an advert for train drivers where
the wages are £33K per annum. I don't know many bus drivers who earn
that kind of money even with overtime.

As I said on uk.railway, you could train a monkey to drive a train these
days and they do NOT deserve that kind of wage.
Brian.

you are wrong...any body can press button d ...what about our route
knowledge,,signals ,,rules,,traction,,,speed limits,,,up to 900
passengers on one train doing 100 mph,,,sucide s,,,,if it is that easy
come and join us

[Dave]

Post by Brian Robertson

Post by Alasdair
I see in another place uk.railway, an advert for train drivers where
the wages are £33K per annum. I don't know many bus drivers who earn
that kind of money even with overtime.

As I said on uk.railway, you could train a monkey to drive a train these
days and they do NOT deserve that kind of wage.
Brian.

you are wrong...any body can press button d ...what about our route
knowledge,,signals ,,rules,,traction,,,speed limits,,,up to 900
passengers on one train doing 100 mph,,,sucide s,,,,if it is that easy
come and join us



what about our route knowledge ? many routes that cross and mingle,,
signals,,rules,,stopping distances,,speed limits,,80 passengers on a vehicle
weaving around idiot road users and other obstacles,,verbal abuse,,
physical abuse,, no transport police etc etc

?

[Brian Robertson]

Post by a***@yahoo.co.uk

Post by Brian Robertson

Post by Alasdair
I see in another place uk.railway, an advert for train drivers where
the wages are £33K per annum. I don't know many bus drivers who earn
that kind of money even with overtime.

As I said on uk.railway, you could train a monkey to drive a train these
days and they do NOT deserve that kind of wage.
Brian.

you are wrong...any body can press button d ...what about our route
knowledge,,signals ,,rules,,traction,,,speed limits,,,up to 900
passengers on one train doing 100 mph,,,sucide s,,,,if it is that easy
come and join us
what about our route knowledge ? many routes that cross and mingle,,
signals,,rules,,stopping distances,,speed limits,,80 passengers on a vehicle
weaving around idiot road users and other obstacles,,verbal abuse,,
physical abuse,, no transport police etc etc
?

I was a guard, secondman and driver with BR for 11 years. And in those
days you DID need some skills! We didn't have countdown markers for
signals and stations and warnings for every speed restriction.

It is pure bollox to say that someone is paid for what they know. It's
about bums on seats and a bloke driving a 142 between Manchester and New
Mills on a weekday mid afternoon is NOT earning THAT kind of money.

Brian.

[Baroness Edwina Frogbucket]

Post by Alasdair
I see in another place uk.railway, an advert for train drivers where
the wages are £33K per annum. I don't know many bus drivers who earn
that kind of money even with overtime.

'First' bus drivers in Cornwall earn less than their colleagues in the rest
of the UK - even Devon. Dunno why - they have to drive clapped out buses
and negotiate those famous vegetation-clad stone walls, tractors, hills, and
no lighting at night. All this and they don't even get paid through their
lunch-breaks.

[Alasdair]

On Fri, 9 Feb 2007 10:04:10 -0000, "Baroness Edwina Frogbucket"

Post by Baroness Edwina Frogbucket
'First' bus drivers in Cornwall earn less than their colleagues in the rest
of the UK - even Devon. Dunno why - they have to drive clapped out buses
and negotiate those famous vegetation-clad stone walls, tractors, hills, and
no lighting at night. All this and they don't even get paid through their
lunch-breaks.
--
Baroness Edwina Frogbucket

Ah, but Cornwall has always striven to be a separate country from the
rest of England with its own language and culture.